The Femme Futurists Society Podcast

Nancy Giordano: Uh, I'm really, really
excited, Eva, that you've made the

time to join us in this conversation.

You know, this whole premise
of the Fem Future Society was

designed for exactly this.

You mean an interesting person online.

You get a chance to be a little
bit exposed to their work, and

you're so curious to learn more.

So thank you for jumping in and having
this conversation with me today.

Ewa Pasternak: you for having me,
and thank you for inviting me.

Nancy Giordano: Uh, so I
am in California today.

You are in Sweden.

As we jump

Ewa Pasternak: Yes,

Nancy Giordano: timelines, which is an
interesting thing, we start to talk about

Ewa Pasternak: yes.

Nancy Giordano: means to be in the space
of, of liminality and quantum leadership.

Uh, so again, just for background, I,
you know, we connected online through a,

a series of posts and I had a chance to
dig into your work and there's so much

similarity in the way that we describe
things and the way that we look at things.

Uh, but there is a. Real practice
around what it is that you've done

that you've spent a lot of time
researching, um, and applying.

So the way that you
describe yourself, right?

It's quantum leadership and quantum
management, coach, practitioner and

researcher focused on liminality.

Is that right?

Ewa Pasternak: Yes, yes.

Nancy Giordano: sitting on a plane next
to someone and they say, what do you do?

How do you start?

Ewa Pasternak: Oh, I said like, do
you have, how much time do you have?

Nancy Giordano: Right?

Ewa Pasternak: It depends on the flight.

If it's like, you know, one hour flight
or was like all the way to California,

because I can talk about it a lot.

It's, uh, yeah, my work is
very much my passion and.

I am sure that you can relate because
it's not just like something that I do,

it's something that I very much feel
that I am and I cannot imagine like

not doing it because it'll be like I
would have to become somebody else.

Um, so this is how closely, uh, in Tan
I am with, with everything that I do.

Um, yes, I am very much, um, entrepreneur.

I am, um.

Uh, from the beginning, like
crisis communication strategist.

Uh, but for the past 15 years, I
have built and developed, um, a few

companies that I built on quantum
management and quantum leadership model.

Since I started studying like very
early, like 15, 17 years ago already,

um, I started to explore, um.

Spirituality of business.

Actually, this is how it all
started and how we engage.

Yes.

And how we engage our spiritual
intelligence, which is like the superior

intelligence, like, you know, like
integrating our linear, um, and um, um,

associative thinking, um, how we engage
this and, and our business, uh, roles.

So my ambition was to create, um.

Spiritually intelligent
organizations, which, um, and some

spirituality in Quantum are so, hmm.

Yeah, closely related, right?

It's, it's very much, yeah.

It's, it's about our essence, right?

It's about our frequency, it's
about our, uh, our uniqueness.

It's about how we, um, ascribe
meaning to things, right?

The spiritual intelligence is
everything about like, you know,

our quantum ness, I would say

Nancy Giordano: Do

Ewa Pasternak: so from,

Nancy Giordano: there a difference

Ewa Pasternak: yes.

Nancy Giordano: between a spiritual
intelligence and an energetic or an

energetic, I dunno if intelligence is
even the right word, but, and, and,

and to your point, a sense because.

Ewa Pasternak: Uh.

Nancy Giordano: Do you, am
I, am I parsing something too

finely or are those in the same

Ewa Pasternak: No, I I very much like
if you, if you look really closely, I

mean if you were, if we're energetically
uh, aware, we are very much aware of us

being a part of something bigger, right?

Us, us participating in creation of like
unfolding and, and unfolding of like two

orders and of something big creation.

And we see, um, the, just to see how.

We take responsibility, right?

If we are energetically aware, we take
responsibility for our thoughts, our

emotions, our actions, because we know
that they're ripple on time and space and

it doesn't get more spiritual than that, I

Nancy Giordano: Got it.

Ewa Pasternak: believe, right?

Like really feeling for the,
for the, for the system.

And, and for systems of systems.

Because knowing that we are always part.

Of a bigger system and the system
is always part of the bigger system.

And everything we do actually affects
and impacts like all the systems that

we are part of because it's so holistic.

Right?

Nancy Giordano: All right, so

Ewa Pasternak: so it's very much so, yeah,
it, it, it very much, um, corresponds.

So, so this is what I've
been doing very much.

I've been, uh, at least this is
what happened, my intentions, I

was like studying, um, business.

Um, spirituality of business and
spiritual intelligence in business.

And then quantum leadership, which
very much comes from the same teacher

because it was Professor Donna Zohar that
actually found it like, you know, she,

she invented like spiritual intelligence
and then later quantum leadership and,

um, the quantum management theory.

So it was very consistent path.

Nancy Giordano: but,

Ewa Pasternak: No, but no, no, no.

But like she coined, she, she
introduced the term for the

first time, actually she did.

And, and she wrote a book sq calling
it and, and, um, identified like

12, 12 criteria for spiritual
intelligent individuals and

spiritual intelligent organizations.

Nancy Giordano: because I met a

Ewa Pasternak: Um, that,

Nancy Giordano: was a corporate shaman.

and

Ewa Pasternak: uh,

Nancy Giordano: in a, probably in the
same arena, but from a different angle.

And so

Ewa Pasternak: yeah.

Nancy Giordano: interesting to watch
the paradigms across these things that

felt like they were very, very separate.

Become more and more and more
closely entangled or aligned

Ewa Pasternak: Yes,

Nancy Giordano: again, it's
just an awareness, right?

That these things do exist together.

Ewa Pasternak: exactly.

Nancy Giordano: I'm curious again, your
path, just backing up for one second

before we dive onto the complexity of
systems, inside Systems, inside systems.

Um, but you know, you

Ewa Pasternak: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Giordano: you were in PR
certainly in crisis communications.

There's a lot of things that happen
very much in real time, right?

A very emergent way of being able
to now help folks navigate what, do

what that drew you into this work.

was it just that as you were exposed
to it became more and more resonant?

Or was there something that you were
seeking to I to understand or gap to fill?

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah, that was very much
my, my feeling that, um, the, the crisis

communication plans and the strategy that
we were providing, like our clients with

as a pr people, they were not sufficient.

There was the whole dimension that,
um, in my eyes was, was missing.

And it was, and it was the,
the, um, the very much, um.

Not only what to say and how to say,
but also like the intention, why we say

it, and what do we really mean and who
is behind the, the crisis management.

Because it's like, like I said, we,
we could have like, um, we could have

give this given the same instruction
to multiple leaders and the same

handbooks and the same trainings, but
what they did with it and how they

actually translated into like, you
know, efficient crisis management and

very much dependent on who they were.

As leaders and as people.

So, so I figured that there
was the very, the, the, the

very essence of them as people.

As leaders,

Nancy Giordano: Yes,

Ewa Pasternak: that that was the final,
like determined, like linked that, that

really like, very much, um, decided
about the outcome of the, because in NPR

you say like, never waste a good crisis

Nancy Giordano: Yeah, exactly.

Ewa Pasternak: and Yeah.

And, and those who really managed
to, to ride through the storm.

With the integrity intact and actually,
uh, with, with the values and with the

purpose, serving the purpose and taking
care of the people and standing steady and

truthful to both the brand and who they
were as people, they actually made their,

their organizations like, you know, more
resilient and almost like antifragile,

like they became stronger after that.

Nancy Giordano: it's
not a playbook, right?

It is really a deeply, um.

Uh, I don't know, wouldn't say
embedded practice, but it is a

way of being that, that, that

Ewa Pasternak: Exactly,

Nancy Giordano: when you look at
right now, AI leadership, right?

Companies that are being led by
these big, big personalities that

are out there talking about all
this capability that will exist

in this, you know, extraordinary
future that we're heading into.

I feel like the same thing applies.

I was listening to a lot

Ewa Pasternak: yes.

Nancy Giordano: over the weekend talking
about different products and different

launches from chat to be T five to.

Ways of being able to protect
content creators, et cetera.

And the way that these people showed
up in the conversation really was

Ewa Pasternak: Yes.

Nancy Giordano: to see whether or
not you feel like you trust them

or you feel like they're building

Ewa Pasternak: Yes.

Nancy Giordano: hold you well.

So I think that this is, um, why the
work that you're doing is not just

about helping people navigate, you know.

Unknown situations, but
it's really about being

Ewa Pasternak: Mm.

Nancy Giordano: to walk into a future
in which we're building something that

is so complex and so touches so much of
us and so many dimensions of our lives.

To be able to be aware of this
aspect of who they are and how

Ewa Pasternak: Exactly.

Nancy Giordano: show up more consciously,
I think is really, really profound.

Ewa Pasternak: There is no
playbook for quantum leadership.

There is no, there is no playbook.

It's, it's like what we do with it.

Like for me it's mostly,
inspiration is a beautiful metaphor.

Like how we can view on things as
opposite to like the Newtonian paradigm.

Like, you know, like, I like this
is, this is like just a suggestion.

Like you can, you can choose,
you can either view on things.

It's like nothing is exceptional and, and,
and a miracle, almost like Einstein says.

Or you can view things and look at
things like everything is absolutely

extraordinary and, and almost a
potential of a like, you know, miracle.

So, so I prefer to,

Nancy Giordano: Yeah.

Oh

Ewa Pasternak: I prefer

Nancy Giordano: should

Ewa Pasternak: to,

Nancy Giordano: step.

Ewa Pasternak: to be there.

Nancy Giordano: we step back for
a moment and describe liminality?

So

Ewa Pasternak: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Giordano: you know, sort of

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: recognizing that
there was a, an energetic way in which

people navigated this more successfully
or not, which led you then to this

question around, uh, liminality.

I think that's a word
that I've used a lot.

Like, I love this idea of the
conversation around the liminal gap or

liminal space or liminal intelligence.

Ewa Pasternak: Yes.

Nancy Giordano: uh, how do you
describe ality for those who may

be less familiar with that term?

Ewa Pasternak: A missing link
in, in the conversation today?

Mostly, uh, because this, like,
for me, this word is so essential.

It's, it's so vital as, as
it's so essential, and I cannot

understand still why we cannot.

Why, why we don't, um, uh, use it
more often, spread awareness more

often, discuss it more often, and
actually, um, um, yeah, integrate it in

Nancy Giordano: they be

Ewa Pasternak: in everything in, in.

Ever transmission, but
it starts with awareness.

Right.

But maybe because it's like, like I
said, the, the very word and the very

definition of, of the menology, it
comes from anthropology as we know.

Right?

And it comes from sociology.

And it very much, um, describes the,
the, the, the three phases of each.

Significant change, uh, and, um, um, yeah,
in, in most of the people's lives, that

is like always about like preliminal,
liminal and, and pulse liminal.

When we, uh, yeah, when, when we go
through change, we separate from our

past, we go through some kind of like
separation, detachment, departure.

Um, and then we are in between
for a while and, um, um.

Aluminum space and on the
threshold of the unknown.

And then after a while when we like
become more familiar with the unknown,

we reintegrate with the society.

So before it was very much studied, um.

Out of like rites of passages, like for
example, like all the big, um, rituals

that were in, like, for example, um,
about like getting married or becoming a

parent or experience, like losing context.

That, that was like very familiar.

Like for example, death of, of
the loved one or, um, um, yeah.

Divorce or moving out from home or
becoming empty nesters, like all those

significant changes that everybody
goes during their life back, um, yeah,

they, they all had the same structure
very much, um, between identities and

between stories and between selves
and between different states, like

of mine and emotional and our spirit.

So this is how, um, this is how Lim
Liminality has been very much defined

Nancy Giordano: So, so it's more

Ewa Pasternak: and uh,

Nancy Giordano: uh,

Ewa Pasternak: yeah.

It's a space between, it's a
space between, it's a space.

It's a, like, it's a, it's when we
find ourself in transition between

like an old order alive as we know it,
and on the threshold, like, you know,

Nancy Giordano: word

Ewa Pasternak: before we arrive.

Nancy Giordano: what we know and

Ewa Pasternak: Yes,

Nancy Giordano: right?

What's familiar,

Ewa Pasternak: no.

Nancy Giordano: But when you put the
word threshold on it, it has such an

invitation to the thing that's happening
next, which I think is so beautiful.

And I think that we have now come to,
uh, embrace it more or sort of look at

it as a concept more distinctly, because
it's not just about the big huge life.

Changes that are happening.

We keep talking about transformation
inside every organization, right?

I'll be having a call tomorrow
with a woman who's leading

transformation inside our
organization, like over and over again.

Ewa Pasternak: Hmm.

Nancy Giordano: inviting people into
constant change, into constant rethinking

of what they knew, what they, how they

Ewa Pasternak: Hmm.

Nancy Giordano: and as an organization,
as an enterprise, as a is, you

know, contribution to society.

And so I think liminality is becoming
something that we have, are distinctly.

to appreciate the importance
of and our ability to

Ewa Pasternak: Exactly, because the
world is in liminality, the world is

in liminality between paradigms, right?

We are shifting from like the Newtonian
paradigm to quantum paradigm, like we are

in between like so many organizations are.

Liminality when old maps no longer apply.

And the new like GPS is like, you
know, like still it's difficult to uh,

navigate when the road is literally
unfolding the front of your eyes

and you are pretty much like also
building the road that you are driving.

So this is where we are at, right?

Nancy Giordano: use the exact same words.

This is the part that's so crazy.

Eva, you and I didn't know
each other a month ago, right?

We're doing work in completely
different continents in the world.

Uh, we both have three children.

We both, you know, there's a lot of
similarities about who we are as humans,

which I think is really fascinating.

But we have literally not
studied in the same places.

We've not worked together
ever, and I literally am using.

Ewa Pasternak: No.

Nancy Giordano: like almost
the exact same words, right?

I talk so much about the

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: do not have a map anymore.

We need to be able to sense
and respond in real time.

We need to be able to build the
capacity to be able to navigate,

uh, unknown terrain, uh, by using a
different set of capacities than a

map that has been outdated and, and
if anything expired and now dangerous.

and so building that ability to
trust ourselves, right, and to, and

to trust the, I don't know if the
environments or the, you know, the.

The, the world around us to hold us
well as we're navigating through that, I

think is a really, really critical thing.

And I don't know that very many
people are prepared for this.

So your work becomes,
again, very, very important.

Do you think that you are more,
at this point, a researcher

or a coach or a tactician

Ewa Pasternak: Um.

Nancy Giordano: people
actually practice this?

Ewa Pasternak: Um.

Researcher with very much.

Um, I, I both observe myself in
liminality because I was like, I'm

in liminality right now, and I, and
I have clients in, in lemonades.

I work with individual.

I still clients, but it's a lot
of research now, now because as

I feel, I feel very strongly.

That the world is ready, the world
is ready to really elevate the

discussion and the conversation
about like the space in between.

It's time for us to talk about not
only like rites of passages, but

actually like, you know, this entire
transition of human consciousness,

like between paradigms and um.

And I think that this is something that
each organization would strongly benefit

from because like I come from leadership
and I come from, from, from management,

um, and, um, in order to make the change
processes like sustainable and generative.

Um, we need to have new tools.

We need to have not only new
mindset, not only new attitude, but

we have to develop and cultivate
a whole new type of intelligence.

And I believe that this is liminal
intelligence that we are asked

Nancy Giordano: I.

Ewa Pasternak: and call
to develop and talk about.

Nancy Giordano: I love it.

So I would like to d dive into
liminal intelligence in a minute,

but can we back up one second?

And

Ewa Pasternak: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Giordano: concept of Newtonian
structures versus quantum structures

is still relatively new to me.

Right?

I've started talking about it in my work,
and I've tried to give people examples

of what it looks like to move from one
to the other, but for those, again, who

haven't been in, you know, introduced
to this contrast between the two, right.

I describe Newton as
much more hierarchical.

Um, much more structured, you know,
based on these scientific paradigms

of how things were supposed to work.

Uh, it is more playbook oriented, like how
would you describe the Newtonian world,

Ewa Pasternak: The Newton is
very much built on separation.

Newton is very much built on separation,
on silos, on, on categories, right?

And it's very much used on power because
like Newton very much believed that like

he portrait, like universe is a quite
cold place, um, cold, empty space with,

uh, with objects that we could, like
the movement, we could predict and we

could understand that we could measure.

By using power, we could like
force things to move and affect

and impact other objects.

So everything was about
using force in order to.

Nancy Giordano: for us as a, as a,

Ewa Pasternak: Yes,
understanding and using force.

So, so that became like a very much
inspiration for the past 300 years,

like, you know, for, uh, for all aspects
of our life like that, everything we

thought that we could, um, control
the nature, control the nature

that we could dominate the nature.

Because we could predict, we
could measure and we could, um.

Command

Nancy Giordano: Right, right, right.

Right.

Ewa Pasternak: how things, and
we could impose our will on how

we thought that life and world
and nature should be, right.

We were like.

Nancy Giordano: potentially slightly
differently, but just in the sense it was

designed to be able to try and coordinate
action in a way that felt predictable.

Right.

And that felt, um, uh, that one
could understand how to, uh, where

they fit into the, the, the pieces.

Like I feel like it was a design.

about how we should navigate

Ewa Pasternak: Hmm.

Nancy Giordano: to get to whatever level

Ewa Pasternak: Hmm.

Nancy Giordano: output
we were trying to get to.

And it was very effective.

It wasn't like it didn't work.

Right.

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

And, but like, because like, you
don't believe that like the, the, the

nature is very simple, that, that's
nature doesn't like to complicate

things and nature is no dummy.

So, so he liked to keep things
simple and um, and we kind of like

bought into this, this view, right?

So,

Nancy Giordano: now to this world.

We've got all these externalities that
have shown up that no one has accounted

Ewa Pasternak: Hmm.

Nancy Giordano: right?

And no one considered in
this very myopic way of

Ewa Pasternak: Exactly.

Nancy Giordano: then we realize
that we're much more in interrelated

systems, that these systems that existed

Ewa Pasternak: Yes.

Nancy Giordano: it's not like
they're just suddenly popping up.

Ewa Pasternak: Okay.

Nancy Giordano: we're putting more

Ewa Pasternak: It was held all the time.

Yeah.

And, and also, um, the entire, when it
comes to business, like the Newtonian

mindset was very much about like,
you know, uh, win and lose game.

Right.

It was like in order for someone to win
survivors of the fittest, like someone

needed to lose or many needed to lose.

Right.

There were very few winners.

Yes.

Nancy Giordano: as opposed

Ewa Pasternak: Yes,

Nancy Giordano: fit.

Right.

They even misinterpreted

Ewa Pasternak: exactly.

Nancy Giordano: uh, or that

Ewa Pasternak: Exactly.

Nancy Giordano: no, it was very much.

Ewa Pasternak: So while the new science
came, like they completely revolutionized

the entire whole because like, you
know, all a sudden they discovered

that the universe like doesn't behave.

It's not simple at all.

It's highly complex and it's super
unpredictable and it's full of like spooky

actions and motions and quantum leaps and

Nancy Giordano: I mean, that's
the part, to your point,

Ewa Pasternak: exactly.

Nancy Giordano: highly entangled with, uh.

Ewa Pasternak: It's contextual, it's
entangle, it's highly relational

like, and interconnected and,

Nancy Giordano: And

Ewa Pasternak: and full of
surprises, and full of surprises

and full of contradictions.

So, yeah, so, so that,

Nancy Giordano: So that's quantum.

Ewa Pasternak: that completely.

Nancy Giordano: right, it is about this
understanding that, you know, around, you

know, the, the turn of the 19 hundreds and
the 1930s, whatever, when you had a bunch

of, uh, European and, uh, American men
often, uh, focused on this work, they were

able to see at the sub subatomic level
that particles moved very differently

and behaved very, very differently.

And there was suddenly this

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: to understanding
what physics was and how we thought

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: systems worked.

That they, I think from

Ewa Pasternak: Hmm.

Nancy Giordano: as I was reading
more about it, were also trying to

discredit like they saw this and
couldn't believe that it was true.

They kept, you know, building more
and more experiments or more and

more, uh, ways to try and hope that
they were wrong, it wasn't true.

And then it

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: that the evidence
became more and more clear that

there is this very different way.

In which, uh, nature

Ewa Pasternak: Yes.

Nancy Giordano: systems operate,
and this is what we're beginning to

Ewa Pasternak: And New Newton in a
way was very much about like that.

There's only one right
way of doing things.

While quantum people like very much
prove that there's infinite ways like,

you know, of doing the same thing and
we can get there like in so many ways

Nancy Giordano: term potentiality.

Ewa Pasternak: and they'll all be good.

Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: uh, potential
or potentiality, which

I think is also a really

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: because it means
that the outcome is not fixed.

Right?

There are many, many,

Ewa Pasternak: No,

Nancy Giordano: ways in, in the
role of who we are, and this goes

back to what you were talking about

Ewa Pasternak: exactly.

Nancy Giordano: and the way
that they approach it, right?

Energetically, the way that we show
up determines, uh, or certainly

has an impact on what becomes
possible and what's not possible.

Ewa Pasternak: And the most importantly
because like one of the absolutely

fundamental principle in quantum physics,
as we know is the observer effect, right?

It's how we observe that
ultimately determines the outcome.

So the energy like to become aware of
our agency, um, and realizing that.

We change things by looking at them

Nancy Giordano: right, but, and again,

Ewa Pasternak: and how

Nancy Giordano: we bring to it makes
something visible or not visible.

Right, that, like the

Ewa Pasternak: Exactly.

Nancy Giordano: so

Ewa Pasternak: Exactly.

Nancy Giordano: that we think we
understand it and then all of a

sudden we realize that we don't really
actually understand it or something

becomes, um, and, you know, increases
our, our ability and our awareness.

And I agree with you that we
as a society or as a humanity

are ready for this leveling up.

I, I 100% agree with you that you know,
right now there's a big group of people

that are trying to figure out how they can
outsmart a robot or out outsmart a machine

and try and like have this like tug of
war with the advances in technology.

And I think there's a very, very different
invitation sitting right there that

we are on the threshold of, uh, that
allows us to operate so, so differently.

Other, and within the, the
nature of which we're all apart.

So this work around quantum
management and liminal intelligence,

let's now dive more into liminal
intelligence and your evolving thinking

Ewa Pasternak: Yes.

Yes.

And I would like to actually, um,
tell more like how I see it, because

it's, um, like I said, it's not only
in mindset, it's not only attitude.

Why I call it like intelligence.

Because it's, it's about our capacity.

It's about our capacity to recognize
that we are in liminality because

we cannot have a liminal experience.

If you don't know that you are
in liminality, you have to know

that you are on the threshold, and
you have to know that the space

that you are in, it's not empty.

This is like the precondition of
having a liminal experience that can

result in a meaningful transformation.

So first.

Criteria for this liminal intelligence
is to really recognize that you are

in liminality and then it's sense, the
very subtle stimuli, you know, from

your external and internal environment.

The next part is to stay
with them, to linger,

Nancy Giordano: I think the hard part.

I think that's really, we always wanna

Ewa Pasternak: and this is the most.

Nancy Giordano: gives us security again.

Ewa Pasternak: And this is the mo.

This is the biggest challenge
of, of this entire approach.

This is the biggest challenge that
we have to both train and untrain,

um, to not collapse directly in, um,
premature solutions and quick answers

Nancy Giordano: on

Ewa Pasternak: and the knowing.

Exactly, so, so in order to, to
like, uh, recognize stems, stay with

and then, uh, respond creatively
to the emerging conditions,

Nancy Giordano: Okay.

Can we break those down
then a little bit more?

So how does one recognize that

Ewa Pasternak: yeah.

Nancy Giordano: liminality, right?

And what are the emotions
that go with that?

Ewa Pasternak: When they, when
they, when there's a threshold,

when the life as we know it ends,

Nancy Giordano: Examples you gave

Ewa Pasternak: uh

Nancy Giordano: the various rites of
passage, those are imposed externally.

We can anticipate them.

We know that these things
are going to happen.

Um, I think that where we're

Ewa Pasternak: mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nancy Giordano: not like we know that
at some point my child is gonna grow up

and move to college or leave the home
or, uh, in some way, you know, change.

Like it's, I think what's happening now is
so much more emergent and is so much less.

Ewa Pasternak: And, but we
can also just operate like,

to, to make it more tangible.

Like of course, like in organization
it can be like, uh, a change, right?

Because like it's a order that ends,
it's a, it's a, it's a order of like,

like that we are familiar order that
no longer applies for whatever reason.

For example, like, okay, but
for, for example, like, like the

entire like appearance of ai.

Like if, if you zoom out, right, this
is a threshold, all of a sudden we

are exposed to whole new space that
we have no idea how to navigate.

And it's, and, and it's discomfort.

It's it's uncertainty.

It's like we don't know the answers.

We, we try to accommodate it.

We try to control it.

We try to like.

Some kind of like find, like
describing a meaning, right?

But, but it's kind of, this,
this space is very dynamic and

it's emergent and it's, um, um, I
think that you, yeah, it's, it's,

Nancy Giordano: think

Ewa Pasternak: this is
very much like liminal.

Nancy Giordano: I think, I mean, again,
this would be the interesting thing.

If I'm imagining us on a flight right
now, Ava, having this like really

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: conversation.

So we're gonna imagine that we're
flying over somewhere in this

liminal space of, you know, the air.

Um, and saying that technology
or an invention, you know, and an

introduction to something like even when
we say AI man, AI's been around for.

Decades.

It has come in different waves.

It has come in different forms.

It's this big, huge word for a bunch
of different things that are happening.

Um, and so I don't think it was
like all of a sudden it was there

and all of a sudden it's, you
know, it wasn't, it wasn't there.

And all of a sudden it is there.

It has been this thing
that is continuing to

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: in our understanding

Ewa Pasternak: It's been unfolding.

It's been unfolding,

Nancy Giordano: to advance
in all these different ways,

but I think it's also about

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: relationship to nature.

It's our relationship and our
responsibility to one another.

Like these are things that I think we're

Ewa Pasternak: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Giordano: more aware of.

I could argue partly it's a, uh,
technology thing, but almost sit there

and say again, we've got 8 billion
people on the planet using resources

on systems that were built for,
you know, one to 2 billion people.

And so there's this

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: that continues to happen.

So liminality also is in the showing up of
the breakdown, right, of the way in which

Ewa Pasternak: Yes,

Nancy Giordano: could continue doing
something is no longer working.

Ewa Pasternak: exactly.

It's like one order dissolving,
one structured dissolving, while

the other ones, the new one is
still forming but not ready yet.

It's like d parting, but not
arriving and just being poised

in the, in the space in between

Nancy Giordano: Okay,
so then let's talk about

Ewa Pasternak: with all the processes.

Nancy Giordano: where we want to
rush to some sense of understanding

or security or, um, uh, a sense
again that we are, we feel capable,

like we, we feel, um, competent.

In that unknown, right?

Which is why I think we end up going back
to, uh, old behaviors, old paradigms,

old structures, wanting to reclaim them.

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: certainly happening
all over businesses right now

that are trying to navigate change

Ewa Pasternak: Yes.

Nancy Giordano: down the
way we used to do it.

Uh, even in the return to office, tug
of war and all these other practices.

Uh, so how do you coach organizations
or people to, is it a very internal

thing, like I just have to become
very clear that I'm still worthy

and I'm safe and well held?

Uh, is it that basic or how
do you help folks navigate

Ewa Pasternak: It is, it's very
much like the starting point is

like, how do you view this space?

Like do you, do you, do you.

Do you perceive the space in between as
empty and messy and full of chaos and,

Nancy Giordano: and

Ewa Pasternak: uh, panicking and like
when you, like, when you activate, like

fight or flight or freeze, like, you
know, and, and, and survival mode and

try to like, you know, get it on the.

And you try to arrive like, as fast
as possible, um, like to, to the next,

um, island of queer and new order
just to have something to grip on.

Right.

Or whether you, or whether you have this
new intelligence approach that, okay, we

are in between, which means that we are
in the most creative and most potent.

Like space we can be, how do we
engage, what do we do with it?

How do we harness like, you know,
all the collective intelligence that

we represent as an organization, our
individual intelligence, like, you know,

and, and all the how do we get together?

How do we sense and listen
and linger and linger to let.

Things and let the space have.

Its saying about what wants to emerge
and what wants to be expressed through

us and through our organization.

Nancy Giordano: an environment

Ewa Pasternak: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Giordano: earnings reports

Ewa Pasternak: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Giordano: analyst.

And

Ewa Pasternak: I know.

Nancy Giordano: system wants us to
be very predictable to, not in any

Ewa Pasternak: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Giordano: but if anything, continue
to grow at whatever predictable paces.

And you know, I've been on these earnings
calls and I'm sure you have too, right?

Where analysts go in
and look at these, like

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: of a number or
something, that they thought that there

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah,

Nancy Giordano: represent some sort of
shift that could somehow be, you know.

Uh, and a signal of an underpinning
of something that could be going wrong

or whatever, whatever it's, so I find
leaders who, that even internally, if

they would like to do this, are sitting
inside structures that are really

Ewa Pasternak: Yes.

Nancy Giordano: make it very,
very difficult for them to

be able to embrace this.

So how do we help navigate folks this?

You know,

Ewa Pasternak: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Giordano: CEOs who have
suspended quarterly earnings.

Reporting because I
just felt like that was

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: really
hampering their ability to be

able to be more responsive and

Ewa Pasternak: Um,

Nancy Giordano: to the changing conditions

Ewa Pasternak: yeah.

Nancy Giordano: Um, but it, you
know, very few are willing to

do that in this moment in time.

Ewa Pasternak: Once, once again,
it's, it's you, you cannot change

the structure, um, especially
when the structure is like fixed.

Right.

But, um, um,

Nancy Giordano: it's much more
difficult, like it's gonna take

Ewa Pasternak: uh,

Nancy Giordano: change that.

That structure is gonna break

Ewa Pasternak: e exactly,

Nancy Giordano: it's no
longer holding a swell.

Ewa Pasternak: yes.

But on the individual.

No, no, no, no.

Because like thing, things will take time.

And of course if you create a new
company from scratch, you can like,

you know, you can have a different
approach and you can create like new

rules that can be much more liminal and
that can actually integrate like, you

know, like more space for becoming, like
already from the start when you are.

And, uh.

Fixed structure already with quarter
reports and all the limitations.

Like if you're listed company or if you're
like, you know, very, um, siloed company.

It's difficult, but we still have
a power on the individual level to

hold our perspective in our head.

Right.

And once again, it's how we observe.

It's how we observe.

And.

Even on the, on the big structural
level, it's difficult to do something

about it if you don't have authority.

But on the individual level, you can
always choose to create the space

between questions, between rushing to
the premature resolution, between coming.

Like, you know, like while creating
a strategy, you can at least like

hold this perspective because like
liminal intelligence is also about

like being able to hold paradox.

The whole paradox that is about
holding the space between multiple

truths and multiple contexts and
multiple polarities to be poised

in between all those things, right?

And, and knowing that like the longer
I linger, the longer I, I'm in this

space like study, knowing that there
are other forces that only my head.

Organizing this, this space, it's not
only up to me and just allow it to happen.

By lingering and staying with it, the
discomfort, the more it actually happens.

So like to refrain from like.

Collapsing too early, like into like
decision answers, solution, like,

um, fragmentation, like sample.

Just, just to have something if you are in
position to hold the space slightly longer

Nancy Giordano: Yeah, I

Ewa Pasternak: than other people.

Nancy Giordano: to hold the space,
I think is an interesting thing.

Right?

Um, I

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: privilege that comes
with that, but I just, just describing

this, I'm thinking about my summer.

have spent like the

Ewa Pasternak: Hmm.

Nancy Giordano: you know, six weeks or
so, uh, in California, um, not in like

hyper-productive mode, not getting on a
plane every week or even every two days.

Like really being in this different
space, really trying to figure out where

I want my future now, literally physically
where I want to live with my partner.

Um, now that my children are all outta.

School all grown.

Like to your point, there's a
threshold that has happened, right?

There's a change that has

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: Um, and I felt so
much more anxious at the beginning

of summer, feeling I had to have the
answer, the answer, the answer, the

answer, and I couldn't figure it out.

And all these variables were going
around and around and around and every

day I would wake up trying to figure
out, you know, what the various, um,

options slash path should be, and
somehow did finally relax into it.

And now it's becoming more and more clear.

As you know, you do sit with it
for a bit and let other things

start to either develop or, uh.

I can see things, whatever it is, there's
something that has shifted and the calm

around this feels really different now,
six weeks later, which I wish I told

myself six weeks prior to just relax.

It's all gonna get clear,
right, that the anxiety

Ewa Pasternak: on space is about.

Questions.

It's like refining our questions and
staying with them instead of like looking

for answers and looking for solutions.

I think that the biggest challenge is
to abandon the identity that we are

mostly reward for having and being
is like the identity of the knower.

Nancy Giordano: right.

Ewa Pasternak: like we always have
to know if we don't know that we have

no value, like, like to, to come with
the solutions and to come with this.

Like, like we are trained in school
already, like to always have the

answer and to always, if you come with
the problem, come with the solution.

Or at least like three.

Nancy Giordano: Right, right, right.

That's

Ewa Pasternak: But, but the, exactly.

But I think that like what really
comes with this new, you know, like.

At least like what I would like to
see more of because this is my highly

like suggested, this is how I observe,
like, you know, the processes going on.

If we had the courage to abandon,
like the identity of the knower for

at least like five minutes a day,

even in the most rigid structures,
you know, and just sit there

with not knowing and practice.

The trust,

Nancy Giordano: has

Ewa Pasternak: you know.

Nancy Giordano: such the
important ingredient in this?

Because I will say I, I'm not a
really great meditator either.

Ewa Pasternak: No, no one is because
like, I find it super difficult because

like when I am, when I'm posed, like, you
know, when I'm poised between like so many

like complex contexts at the same time,
like, like sitting and meditating and

getting outta my head is the last thing.

Like, like, you know, I, I find it
like even more stressful because

it's like, I shouldn't be meditating.

No, sometimes it's just
like pausing the response.

Nancy Giordano: Got it.

Ewa Pasternak: In in, instead of like
immediately answer an email, just like.

Just stay with the question.

Just like,

Nancy Giordano: Yes,

Ewa Pasternak: create a space for,
for maybe better solution to emerge.

Invite some like life forces to maybe like
organize and orchestrate things with you.

For you.

It's not, everything is up to us and
not everything is up to us to always

figure out like if, like, I've learned
so many times and just as you like.

Every time that I really engage life

Nancy Giordano: Yeah.

Ewa Pasternak: to to, to plan my
life, to arrange my life, or to

solve a problem that's like seemingly
insolvable, unsolvable, it always

gets like beyond logic much better.

Nancy Giordano: Well, I definitely think
that there's so many things that come up.

You know, part of it is just like calming
down from where you can see things that

you may not have been able to see when
you were in this rush to go do it, or

you felt this pressure to go do it.

Um, and then I think to your
point that there are these.

Constellations that are
shifting and changing around us.

And we talk to, you know, I spend a lot
of time with young people, people who are

either in college or are entering the,
the world of work, um, and who feel like

there's so much shift and change everyone
feel this pressure to, to do and to

Ewa Pasternak: Hmm.

Nancy Giordano: and to be,
and to have an answer, right?

I think that the invitation that
you have about this liminal space

and the liminal intelligence
would be very inviting for them

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: uh, to

Ewa Pasternak: Yes, because
they are in liminality.

They are in li like leaving, like
becoming an adult, becoming a part

of like, you know, working society.

Like being in the beginning of your career
is like such uncharted territory, right?

Like it's the field
that they never worked.

Nancy Giordano: even know
that the concept of a

Ewa Pasternak: Yes,

Nancy Giordano: to continue
to exist quite that way.

Right.

Ewa Pasternak: exactly.

Even the concepts.

So they're just like, but.

This intelligence really about like
refining our questions and, and, and

asking doubt and suspending our urge
to like figure it out by ourselves.

Um, and.

Nancy Giordano: I can see the,

Ewa Pasternak: This is the good start
that we can practice, like, pretty

much like ever because, because we
are trained to always deliver, and the

speed of our response has been always
like the, the it, it has been like

some kind of like, um, uh, determine
like our world and our intelligence.

How smart are you?

Like how, how smart can you, how, how,
how fast can you answer the question?

Like, you know, whether a teacher or
your boss asks you or even your parents.

But I think that like to really allow
and to give people permission and

like in your team or in your close
environment to not know for a while.

Like to not know for a while.

Just I'll, let me get back to you on that.

Like tomorrow or like even before I
go home or before like, whatever, just

to, to make it legit and to honor it.

Nancy Giordano: how's that gonna happen

Ewa Pasternak: Like, let me,

Nancy Giordano: literally an AI
assistant around us all the time?

Right?

We're moving so quickly into
this idea that we're gonna have

Ewa Pasternak: mm-hmm.

Nancy Giordano: you know, intelligent
quote unquote partner that can

immediately answer any question that
we have, or curiosity that we have.

Does that increase our ability to
live in the unknown, or does that.

You know, harden our desire to want to
have quick answers that are concrete.

Like in some ways I could
see it goes both ways.

I think the thing that's been
really interesting about, uh, this

whole conversation we have right
now about people having almost

an overdependence or parasocial
relationship with Cha gbt is that they

Ewa Pasternak: Mm.

Nancy Giordano: wanting to ask
more and more and more, right?

They keep wanting to have a more
expansive conversation and really dig

into the potential of things, which I
find actually to be a really cool thing.

Like, I think that that's a very.

Progressive thing.

They're not just trying to
get to the final answer.

Sometimes they are.

I mean, I'm sure they're trying to
get to sometimes just the, the most

expedient answer, but I do think
you're seeing a lot more conversation

happening inside these systems that
are more explorative, exploratory.

Is that the

Ewa Pasternak: absolutely.

I, I, I think that the, there's like,
um, something that we cannot outsource

to ai, and it's our intention, uh,
it's, it's our intention where we

want to like, take the process.

Like if we are in transition,
like we can have an intention of

like what we wanna do with this in
Betweenness, what we wanna do with.

Our existence and our I amness.

So, so like how, how do you want to,
how do you want to manage this space?

And if we use AI in order to become.

In order to become more of who we are.

If, if, if we are inquisit, like
we probably use AI to become

even more inquisit, right?

If we are curious, if we are like really
working on defining like, and like

questions and, and giving them like more
quality and making them more complex

and more advanced and sophisticated,
will probably, our intention will be

probably to use AI to, to do just that.

Right?

To help me be more creative.

Have I missed something?

Like is there another angle?

Is there another perspective?

Is there like, can I be more, can I
become more with my questions or with

this, like with what I'm sitting with?

But I also see that like,
you know, people who.

I don't have it.

The, the, the quality of the prompts
will always reflect the intention.

Nancy Giordano: Right,
right, right, right.

Right.

Ewa Pasternak: So, so even there, we can
be very intelligent, liminally intelligent

and use this for our own becoming and for.

Like the, the process of co-creation,
even with AI as well, just as we

co-create with life intelligence, right?

And, and life organizing
and orchestrating forces.

We can probably use exactly the same
with, with AI as just another tool,

as another partner to invite to do
like, you know, creative Dance of arts.

Nancy Giordano: the, there are a few
women that I don't, I'll say specifically

women that have been part of our fem
futurist, uh, society, um, really

do embrace that dance of co-creation
with something like, in particularly

Ewa Pasternak: Hmm.

Nancy Giordano: Um, and feel it as a
much more emergent, um, some, some, you

know, one of my friends really believes
that there's a consciousness coming from

the edge of the universe, and this kinda
speaks through us, uh, through, uh, AI

in this dance of, of, of potentiality.

So it's a really interesting thing
and it's also just, I think you're.

Either your experience, I don't know.

Again, the, the words always seem
to feel like they're failing you.

If it's your experience or your mindset,
or your belief system or your, you

know, uh, a way that you approach it,
or to your point, the intentionality

with which it is that you believe this
thing can be a partner in your thinking.

Um, I think is a really interesting,
I mean, again, we're, we're

so early days on this Eva.

We're just beginning to, you know, first

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: experience it,
put some, vocabulary and some

shared understanding around it.

Um, so in the time we have left,
I think there's two directions.

You can decide which way you wanna go.

One is the third of this.

When you talk about like, hitting,
you know, getting to the next, the,

the, the sort of post liminal phase.

My belief is right now

Ewa Pasternak: Hmm.

Nancy Giordano: look very concrete.

It's going to look more and more fluid.

it's not so much that we're leaving this
like, you know, very solid thing going

into the liminal space and then gonna
go to the next mountain or to the next

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: to the
next thing that is solid.

It's going

Ewa Pasternak: Order.

Nancy Giordano: right?

It's going to be something that is going

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: the really the, for
me, the Transformative shift from the

Newtonian into the quantum is that
it will be an embrace of fluidity.

And emergence and constant
creation and really being in a

very different kind of dance.

Like you think about the, you know,
again, from a very hierarchical structure

to the murmuration of birds, uh, or

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: of the way
other systems in nature work.

Like there's a, that's
the big paradigm shift.

And then we talk about transformation.

That to me is the big transformation,
is how we start to build confidence in

our capacity to be part of a much more
fluid, uh, experience within in life.

Ewa Pasternak: And maybe
that's a new order, right?

Nancy Giordano: Yeah.

Yeah.

I dunno.

It's that funny to, to think of
that as an order, but it is a way of

Ewa Pasternak: Uh,

Nancy Giordano: it

Ewa Pasternak: but yeah, exactly,
because like the order is like, you

know, our, our cognitive construct,
this is how we see it, because we

want to see like islands like right
of safety that we can like, you know,

Nancy Giordano: right.

Ewa Pasternak: that, that we can, um, take
ourselves like from A to B and like from

like as a, as a linear journey, right?

From.

Evolution, but, but maybe
it's not about that anymore.

And what's so like, what I love about,
um, the quantum paradigm and the quantum

mindsets and philosophy is very much that
the game is like win about win-win, right?

It's, it's, it's a infinite.

It's an infinite game.

Like new Italian world was very much
about like finding games, like someone

has to win in order to have like someone
who's like game over, game over, right?

Like in Quantum you just keep the game
going and you play in order to keep the

flame burning, to keep the like game
going and to keep the consciousness

to evolve and to like, you know, to.

To be more attuned and aligned with
the, the bigger movement, right?

The, the, the, the, the, the cosmic
movements that, that are there.

So maybe that's why, and it's,
it's about legacy, right?

Like I ev and it's about once again,
like intention, like how do we use

AI so our children can take over
and their children can continue.

Nancy Giordano: Yeah.

So there's an

Ewa Pasternak: So we all

Nancy Giordano: world, so.

Ewa Pasternak: the game like, you know.

Nancy Giordano: of also, you know,
in addition to all the AI stuff

and the tech stuff and the business
world, I'm also part of a community

in Costa Rica of women that are
building something quite sacred there.

And there's this term that I've been
spending a lot of time in and remembering.

So it's like

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: you know, in
parentheses, remembering this

idea that we're remembering and
remembering how connected we are and

Ewa Pasternak: Hmm.

Nancy Giordano: we are.

So in some ways, a lot of what we're
talking about is not just even going

forward into these whole new paradigms
or whole new ways of thinking.

In some ways it's

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: circle back to.

The way, you know, again,
nature has already been built.

Indigenous systems have been built
of feminine wisdom that has been, you

know, present forever, that has been
subjugated in the Newtonian world.

So I think that there's also
something very inviting about

the fact that it isn't that we're
heading into a complete unknown.

I really do think that there
is a literally a reconnecting,

re remembering that is part of

Ewa Pasternak: Exactly.

Nancy Giordano: imitation.

Ewa Pasternak: I, I don't, I, I don't
think it's like completely like, like

the, the, the circumstances that we
live are like, you know, so different

to like what it used to be, obviously.

But the, the essence that I, what I
believe that we're essentially very

well equipped to meet the emergent,
because if it wouldn't be happening,

if we weren't, like what it takes

Nancy Giordano: I

Ewa Pasternak: to meet, to, to meet
the, it wouldn't be on our table.

Nancy Giordano: Love

Ewa Pasternak: Like it,
it would be happening.

It would be happening somewhere else.

So what I believe that we have
this built in capacity in us

that has always been there.

Nancy Giordano: that

Ewa Pasternak: So it's about
remembering, it's about, um.

Like tuning into it, one or that, but
the circumstances are so new that we've

never, never, ever had to navigate and
really like and be in this space before.

And it's much more complex.

It's much more, um.

Like the, the capacity to hold paradoxes.

I don't think that like any, anybody
before, like in, in the history of

humanity needed to hold paradox,
like, you know, and the tension

between the fixedness and unfitness,
like just so much as we have to do.

But I was also thinking because
like, you know, if the, if

the future is female, right?

And it's about like female, like, um.

Uh, tapping into our, like, you know,
female aspects, both men and women,

obviously the, the, the, the feminine
and it's about receiving, right?

Our, about our ability to receive,
to nurture, to carry to care,

and to look tenderly at, right?

Then my question is collectively
like, you know, what do we

want to, what are we receiving?

What are we receiving right now?

What are we nurturing right now?

What do we, what are we holding in our
slack space in our systems right now?

Because I believe that liminal space
holds us, and if we hold it back,

Nancy Giordano: I, I
just wanna take a, take

Ewa Pasternak: you know that the.

Nancy Giordano: moment and
just take a really deep breath

and like, think about that.

Or just, and, and not even think, but
just like, hold that for a moment.

What an amazing, Reflection, right.

And a moment for us to
really embrace in that.

I think that that is a
really, really profound Eva.

So I think that as we close
this conversation, we've

only got a few minutes left.

I think that, you know, having had
this whole exploration of flying

across this whole thing, like is
there a, um, a thought or an imitation

or a practice that you would leave
us with that lets us really, um.

Not so much understand the concept of
liminality and liminal intelligence,

but embody it in some way.

Like where do you think there's a

Ewa Pasternak: Yes,

Nancy Giordano: some people to,

Ewa Pasternak: yes.

I, I think that, um, next time tomorrow
or this, like whatever you find

yourself looping in your thoughts.

Your emotions and in the problems
and about the public crisis that

we are facing and we're in, and
you don't have time to meditate.

You don't have time to go
somewhere to get out of your head.

I would love to assure you that there
is a space inside your head that

holds your thoughts, that holds your
emotions, that holds your questions.

If you shift your focus from the thoughts,
from the words, from the problems and

from the questions, and just shift
your attention and just linger there

in your head, in between everything
that's going on there, you'll see how

your body relaxes,

and this space has the answers.

The space has the creative solutions,
the space remembers, and the space

will take you where you need to be,
not where you think that you wanna be.

The space will take you where you
need to be in order to be calm.

Nancy Giordano: A ho,
my friends would say.

And so it should be, I like,
what an amazing, uh, invitation.

Right.

And I, and I will just add to it, the
thing that you just said that I think

gave me shivers when you said, what are
we willing, what are we ready to receive?

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: And to let that space,
let that become more and more visible.

I think it's a really profound.

Thought because I think that we

Ewa Pasternak: Like

Nancy Giordano: believe that

Ewa Pasternak: there to,

Nancy Giordano: to us.

And I think it is.

I think it's constantly there.

Ewa Pasternak: yeah, stay with.

Stay with our intention to receive.

Nancy Giordano: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

I think that that is a really,
really profound thought.

Oh my gosh, this is so fun.

Well, I, I, now, I do wanna book a
flight with you and like go fly from, you

know, place to place to place and have
these conversations with other people.

Um, because I think following your.

Ewa Pasternak: We can departure and just
keep on flying, like without arriving.

We can just like, you know,
hold the space of not arriving.

Nancy Giordano: Totally.

And a very, you know,

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: that doesn't in
any way have impact on the planet.

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

No.

Nancy Giordano: uh, but no, I do
think following your work will be

really, really interesting because I
know that you are still in it, right?

All of this, I mean, not just,
we're always gonna be in it,

but it continues to evolve

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah,

Nancy Giordano: to,

Ewa Pasternak: yeah.

Nancy Giordano: Uh, to deepen
in your thinking and the way

that you share it with others.

So I'm really excited that we
found each other and that we get

to continue to stay in each other's

Ewa Pasternak: Yes.

Nancy Giordano: as you.

again, deepen and now generously share.

I think so much of what you're
thinking and doing in these ways

that you're putting it out there for
all of us to have some more access

to and be able to discuss with you.

Uh, and, uh, you know, I also
am very focused on this next

generation of young people that we
are privileged to be parents to,

or aunties or mentors or others.

And knowing that you are also raising.

Uh, a family with this way of thinking
makes me also feel really, really good.

It's already amplified inside your
household and in your world, so thank you

Ewa Pasternak: Yes,

Nancy Giordano: ensure, uh,

Ewa Pasternak: yes.

Nancy Giordano: you know, not just
a safer and and healthier world, but

with people who feel prepared to be
in it and can be, uh, extraordinary.

I, I don't wanna say leaders, but examples
of how to hold this for their peers.

Ewa Pasternak: Exactly.

Thank you so much because I very much
believe that we are so ready and I

really want to declare our readiness
as a representative of like, you

know, of our human, human family.

You know that we are ready to.

Uh, become more right
to, to become more and to

Nancy Giordano: recognize

Ewa Pasternak: um,

Nancy Giordano: think that, yeah, to
really, to recognize our more, I think

this an extraordinary, intelligence and
consciousness and ability to be able to,

to navigate and to, and to, to
show up and, and extraordinary.

Um.

I not just, I don't even, I, I, I, my
vocabulary just continues to fail me

in this whole thing, but in this way of
being that I think is really profound,

extraordinary, generous, and to your
point, very creative and will allow

us to build the future that we want
for ourselves and for everyone in it.

I think there's a, we're, we are on a
threshold, and I think that threshold is

Ewa Pasternak: And what future wants
for us and what future wants for

us, because I very much believe that

Nancy Giordano: if we could

Ewa Pasternak: if we could see the
future's phase, it would probably, we'll

probably discover that like, you know,
she is looking at us very tenderly and

goes like, come on, you can do it guys.

Nancy Giordano: I love it.

I love it.

Ava, pastor Neck, thank you so much
again for spending an hour with us.

Deepening our understanding and our

Ewa Pasternak: Yeah.

Nancy Giordano: around all this is,
again, is what makes this the fem

future society such a really, really
rich place and why we continue to

spend time in these conversations
and we will, uh, to be continued.

My friend, we are now,

Ewa Pasternak: Absolutely.

Nancy Giordano: entangled Missy, and so

Ewa Pasternak: yes, and
we're only warming up.

We're only warming up

Nancy Giordano: Exactly.

Ewa Pasternak: through time and space.

Nancy Giordano: Oh my
God, I'm so grateful to

Ewa Pasternak: There's more to come.

Nancy Giordano: Thank you.

Thanks again for all the, the,

Ewa Pasternak: Thank you so much.

Nancy Giordano: um, all the energy and
passion and love that you pour into this.

Thanks.